We won’t be cute and matching anymore...

"Eric @ opposite-lock.com" (theyrerolling)
10/21/2019 at 00:30 • Filed to: Car Buying

We’ve been vaguely planning it for a while, but I keep resisting, hoping to get a plug-in hybrid (if we must own one of these hingeyvans, might as well get the most practical type) and some more savings stashed in case something happens... I don’t get wanting a car big enough for 4+ kids when you only have one, but considering every kid needs more luggage to go anywhere in an automobile than people bring when climbing Mount Everest, I guess we have to go huge.

So, for our anniversary, since we had child care, we went out to dinner and looked at cars. She insists we must have a 3-row because she really wants to look like a mom, but she thinks these things are cooler than minivans. Eye roll.

Cars that we’ve looked at:

This is easily the best option for so many reasons. These get screaming good fuel economy numbers for this class with the hybrid power train, they’re very roomy in the front seats, they have plenty of 1-2 row pitch for child seats, and they’re pretty reasonably priced. I didn’t drive this, but from the passenger seat it was pretty sweet - I cranked the ventilated seats and it rode smooth like an old LS400 - I’d gladly do a road trip in it. My wife is a CVT noob, so she thought it was struggling up a hill, but it seemed to have plenty of power. Climbing in was not horrible. The second row is roughly as comfortable as the front. The 3rd row seats are useless for anyone that has legs, unless you squish the people in the second row, but it’d still be pretty uncomfortable. We are only considering the 2019 AWD Hybrid Limited Platinum , which includes a panoramic sunroof and the bird’s eye camera (which is standard in more modern decently-optioned cars of this size).

If we weren’t considering the Highlander Hybrid Limited Platinum , we probably wouldn’t be considering the Highlander at all, but these loaded ones absolutely LANGUISH on the lots; the one we test drove had been sitting in their back lot/warehouse for five months already when we checked it out (and every lot around here has at least a handful of this trim level, but few other variants). I suspect this is because at this price point most buyers simply switch to the Lexus RX...

I am very worried about reliability with these because Ford has gone so far downhill in the last handful of years, but she was obsessed with them. They’re also hideous in anything but the ST trim in black. So ugly in person that I tried to steer her to the Expedition, which is at least a decent-looking car. If we’re going to waste a huge amount of fuel to drive a monstrosity, might as well go big. Upside is that it has power folding third row seats, which are cool, but not that cool, considering it takes at least 10x as long to slowly go up or down, while the others just have straps that quick release for folding and a strap to pull back up... Front seat room is surprisingly cramped for a car of this size and the bigger display is a hot mess (it’s super tall and weird). It had the highest floor and my wife bashed her head every time she got in it. One feature we loved was that with the smaller horizontal screen it has a nice little tray under it that a phone fits in perfectly. On a longer trip, I’d rather ride in the middle row, as it’s easily the best space in the car, aside from that terrible afterthought middle console thing on the floor between the rear captains chairs (wtf? This thing looks like garbage.). The third row is usable as it has enough space for legs... This car had the biggest interior of the bunch, though you would expect that considering it is also the largest on the outside. I hate the electronic parking brake. Hate. The gear selector is so cheap and cheesy feeling, I don’t understand why they bothered. The variant we’re looking at is the Limited AWD with the panoramic sunroof, which includes the overhead camera.

I like these because they get decent fuel economy and they’re unabashed hingeyvans. Every seat in this car is a really nice place to be, but it’s also the most cramped. The third row is marginally usable, a tiny bit worse than the Explorer. It had the lowest floor by a good margin, has the second best fuel economy, and is number one in cup holders. It’s the least-quirky Subaru I’ve seen and the engine looks ... tiny ... in that huge engine bay. Seriously, you could fit at least another half an engine in there. The power train is [nobody cares] and according to reviewers these drive pretty much like a really fat car (we didn’t drive it at all, just looked in the showroom). A bonus is that they’re really cheap, even in their most loaded trim. They also have the lowest hood, so they’re less SUV-like from the driver’s seat. The only quirk I could find was the way they did the middle rear seat belt that is embedded in the ceiling, the rest looked like a totally normal car, which tripped me out because it’s not Subaru at all in my mind without being super quirky. Ultimately, the cramped front seats and the fact the Touring version only comes with brown seats meant it dropped out of the running. She just didn’t love it.

The Subaru experience was, however, quite memorable. The salesperson turned my wife off entirely and she had all-but rejected it prior to looking (which I think was unfair; I personally thought it was better than the Explorer in all but the oddly-limited options and thought the smaller overall size was better for city use), so it was more for my curiosity than hers. When we were about to leave, the salesperson got very animated telling us about the car and flung his glasses into the engine of the Forester adjacent to the Ascent we were looking at. He couldn’t see them down there, so I turned on my phone flashlight and spotted them sitting on the under tray (as I suspected). He couldn’t reach them, of course. Some other salespeople came over and tried to help, but nobody could reach them. I decided to solve it by laying on the floor and sliding under it, squeezing my hand up over the undertray and barely getting a hold of them. He was amazed I pulled it off and so happy to get them back. I said it was nothing and that I have a lot of experience fishing out 10mm sockets, but I think the joke was lost on him.

We also considered the RX450hL briefly when saw an RX350L at the Toyota dealer, but it requires premium fuel and it was a little too bougie for the circles we run in. Plus it was ungainly and ugly, while the Highlander is really normal and restrained. I get a sense that it’s too close to the RX in size and price, so people looking at spending the amount the top trim goes for just buy the Lexus like they do with the Land Cruiser...

Which one will we buy? We haven’t decided with certainty, but I think that after discussing it on the way home we’re about 90% certain that we’ll be buying a Highlander. The Explorer is still in the running, but it will depend on back-to-back test drives and the final numbers, both of which we’re planning to get on Tuesday evening.

Outside the car, Toyota has better financing rates. Ford has way more selection, though they need to pull the one with the option mix we want from their offsite storage.

Hopefully this hunt will be over soon, because I hate buying cars.

DISCUSSION (35)

Spanfeller is a twat > Eric @ opposite-lock.com
10/21/2019 at 00:34

Why not a WK2 with the v6?

It’s really nice car.... I have my doubts about FCA reliability, but it seems like they have the pentastar under control.

Montalvo > Eric @ opposite-lock.com
10/21/2019 at 00:39

Skip the E xplorer, the Expedition is where you want to be. Personally, if I am buying something with a third row it is going to be based off a truck platform so I can take full advantage of the practicality . There has been one in my family at all times for the past 2 decades and I wouldn’t want anything else in its place. Great ride, plenty of power to tow things or when you pack it to the brim to move stuff. They handle better than they have any business doing too.

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > Eric @ opposite-lock.com
10/21/2019 at 00:40

Is this what I have to look forward to if we have a baby?

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > Eric @ opposite-lock.com
10/21/2019 at 00:40

The RX is a nice car to be in, though not one to look at. Definitely not too posh for Eastside, even Duvall. Plenty of new pickups and Grand Cherokees roaming around that cost more.

Highlander - I share your sentiments. You’ll seldom use that third row so who cares.

Exploder - you’d be better off in an F150 supercrew than to be a guinea pig for the new gen Explorer.

Ascent - I don’t know, I really think the Forester is better in every way except cupholders. Again, who needs a third row with but one child?

How about a Tiguan? You can get one with a "third" row, not too big, just a big Golf.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > Spanfeller is a twat
10/21/2019 at 00:45

The list of brands we wouldn’t even consider includes all FCA brands, so it wasn’t even on our radar. Her cousin has one and it’s...fine...but who knows how long it would last. We don’t trade cars in constantly, we tend to own them for 10+ years at a time, so we need something reasonably reliable.

The other issue is that she drives 0-10 miles a day on a typical weekday in 1- 2.4 mile segments. An electric car would really be the best thing for her driving pattern, but she also wants something we can take on road trips and she has range anxiety.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever
10/21/2019 at 00:51

It’ll actually be something YOU’LL be looking forward too, your wife will be fine . The GSW will baby; I have my doubts about the FiST. Congrats on your new Telluride in advance!

LastFirstMI is my name > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever
10/21/2019 at 00:53

Yes. Whenever i was younger you had to have a car seat upon leaving the hospital with a newborn; now you have to have an SUV. And they send a notice to your friends that you won’t be socializing for the next 6 months to 18 years.

Spanfeller is a twat > Eric @ opposite-lock.com
10/21/2019 at 00:54

FCA is kind of strange; we’ve had a bunch of GCs since the 90s and none gave mayor problems...

I mean, if you’re considering an explorer ST; you’re entering the Model Y price range... but if you only change cars every ten years or so and have range anxiety then definitively wait for the new Highlander; it’s probably a year out

TheRealBicycleBuck > Eric @ opposite-lock.com
10/21/2019 at 01:11

My wife loved her Explorer. We have only two kids, but we used the third row often. Sometimes it was to create more space between our kids, but more often it was to haul other kids around with ours. We had a few issues with it, but most of those popped up after it was rear-ended the first time. I highly recommend avoiding any special pearl paints. They have a hard time matching those paints, even at the dealership body shop.

As for a hybrid, there was enough of a price difference that it would have taken 10 years to make up the difference. It made more sense to go with the 6-cyl model. If you do go with captains chairs in the 2nd row, just take the center console out. It blocks what is a perfect pass-through to the 3rd row. We had the split bench and I always wished we had splurged for the chairs.

Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen > Eric @ opposite-lock.com
10/21/2019 at 01:23

0-10 miles a day with occasional road trips is almost exactly NOT the sweet spot for a hybrid, I’d have thought. You won’t save enough on the short trips to pay back the extra cost and on the road trips there’s not much economy benefit over a conventional engine.

Says the man who’s put about 10k miles on his Leaf in the last 5 years because his wife decided she loves it and commandeered it for her half-mil e commute, leaving me to drive the gas-guzzler on my 20 mile one

fintail > Eric @ opposite-lock.com
10/21/2019 at 01:26

Last week, I visited my college roommate from 20 years ago. He told me “be thankful you don’t have kids”, as his are 9 and 11, the latter one having some growing pains, and he is stressed a bit. CUVs also make me thankful for that :)

Their cars are an Odyssey (hers) and a Mazda 6 (his), so he apparently married well anyway.

The Highlander has a mild Eastside bulldozer parent vibe to it, but not to the shouty sports parent level of a 4Runner/Jeep/real SUV or pickup . Could be worse.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo
10/21/2019 at 01:29

It depends on the part of town, but it’s still a little too bougie. What’s funny is that you can land one for slightly less after negotiation than the top trim level of the Highlander ... We also have family that we worry about feeling something about us having a new luxury car. The difference between the RX450hL and Highlander Hybrid Limited Platinum is surprisingly slim . If she was looking at a Rav-4 , I suspect we’d end up with th e shorter RX, because Toyota doesn’t have anything comparable.

The Explorer scares me. They have a bad reputation recently and these are known for mystery problems with manufacturing. I prefer to get cars at mid-cycle refreshes or during their last model year, when no major changes have been made. That’s another huge thing going for the Highlander...

The size difference isn’t radical from the Forester. The Ascent is like a Forester that is suffering from an allergic reaction, it’s just fluffy. The interior doesn’t feel like the exterior; you’d almost think you were driving a much smaller car. I think it’s an exceptional package, but it does get really terrible fuel economy as well. I suspect that rear row will be down all the time in all but the Explorer, because they’re effectively useless.

I’d be cool with the Tiguan. I thought the Discovery Sport was a great package for carrying 4-5 adults, with the ability to carry up to 7 in a pinch. I feel like it’d be like that, but probably more reliable... There aren’t many cars of that size with three rows, which is surprising.

The problem is that kids need so freaking much equipment these days. It’s ridiculous.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever
10/21/2019 at 01:35

You have to look forward to ridiculously huge car seats, strollers, diaper bags, spare clothing, etc, etc, etc. Every time I turn around there’s another cubic foot or two of space necessary for some other critical thing.

Seriously, Mount Everest. You’re a Sherpa for all the baby support equipment until they’re like 15, when they can finally sit in normal car seats, if they’re big enough.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > Montalvo
10/21/2019 at 01:36

Except it’s HUGE. I’m not actually sure it would fit in our garage. These 3-row crossovers will definitely fit in the garage...

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen
10/21/2019 at 01:45

Electric is exactly what she needs, but electric can’t be had in this size range at a reasonable price, plus her range worries. A plug-in hybrid is the best compromise, but she won’t wait that long.

The cost difference between a traditional power train and a hybrid in the Highlander is just over a thousand dollars. It’s not nothing, but it could easily pay for itself in just savings on gas.

I also didn’t go into it, but her car tends to be the car we drive for outings because she finds my FoST uncomfortable. So we would take it on shopping runs and similar outings, where hybrid would definitely have advantages.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo
10/21/2019 at 01:50

The FiST will small child, probably won’t baby. If we could just get to front facing child seats (at least 2 years to go for me, unless we have another, then reset the clock), as long at a car has a rear seat, it’ll probably accommodate one. Even like an 86 should fit one (getting the kid in might suck, but it could probably be done).

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > TheRealBicycleBuck
10/21/2019 at 02:03

I couldn’t figure out how to remove it in the 2020 Explorer. Humorously, she prefers the old one, but they’ve been aggressively selling down their stock at local dealers, so it was hard to find any.

We had a really r ough conversation about carrying other kids. You see, she has grand ideas about doing that with her mom car, but the problem is that kids need car seats forever now, so to take someone’s kid for some reason you’d need their associated car seat. Our baby has four car seats already - infant, 4Ever for dad’s car, 4Ever for grandma’s car, and 4Ever for mom’s car (infant is in there now, but he’s practically grown out of it, we’re just making him suffer so he doesn’t hate it when we use it on the plane, plus we could discard it if it gets damaged on the trip).

The hybrid price difference is tiny on these. It’s only 3-4K in fuel consumption (depending on fuel prices) before it has paid for itself...

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > fintail
10/21/2019 at 02:18

Mine won’t even look at minivans, because she has this obsession with CUVs (because she’s kind of boomer inside on some things, which I blame on her rural upbringing that seems to have been 50 years out of date). I suspect that if she actually tried one, she’d regret the CUV. Everything from seating position to being able to stand inside them when strapping a kid in makes them better, especially here. But whatever, she can deal with her choice.

Out where I live, now that I notice they exist, the Highlanders seem to be today’s Camry. They are just a plebeian mom car that says nothing about the driver, unlike all the Teslas, GLSs, Q#s, and Range Rovers... Some of these people also drive Lexuses, so that’s another fear (don’t want to be associated with those people; people don’t like you if you are one of those tech people out here).

The sports parents you mention are the worst out here. Damned Stepford people, and you’re right, they all drive Jeeps, trucks, full-size SUVs, etc. My neighborhood is packed with these people.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > Spanfeller is a twat
10/21/2019 at 02:24

The plug in hybrid Highlander is supposed to be available in February of 2020, but she won’t wait that long...

Montalvo > Eric @ opposite-lock.com
10/21/2019 at 07:08

Explorer - 70"x79" x199 " vs Expedition - 76"x84 " x210". Sure its big but the explorer isn't really minute either.

Arrivederci > Eric @ opposite-lock.com
10/21/2019 at 08:06

The Lexus dealership experience alone makes the RX worthwhile over the Highlander.

Why no CX9?

Jarrett - [BRZ Boi] > Eric @ opposite-lock.com
10/21/2019 at 08:24

I’m currently weathering the 2-years-until-front-facing with my ‘86'! I dramatically underestimated how much space rear-facing car seats take. Even the Mazda3 that we have has to have the passenger seat moved half way up.

We will probably ride out the rest of the 3's life, but other cars are looking very tempting.

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > Eric @ opposite-lock.com
10/21/2019 at 09:42

I’d steer away from the Ford if I were you. A month or so ago Ford was in full panic mode working round the clock at almost all their US plants because they had a build up of almost 20k Explorers which were failing quality control in numerous ways and had to be repaired. It sounded like Ford didn’t even have answers for what was causing a lot of the issues.

Ash78, voting early and often > Eric @ opposite-lock.com
10/21/2019 at 09:52

Pacifica PHEV. Dat $7,500 instant cash in a couple months (via IRS) is pretty sweet. Plus you get “rare cred” which is NOT something you get with any of the others. They’re like the wallpaper of suburbia.

I haven’t driven one personally, but I’ve heard the low batter placement makes them pretty flat in the corners. I’d probably go extended warranty because FCA...

The smartest money is Sienna, followed by Highlander.

His Stigness > Eric @ opposite-lock.com
10/21/2019 at 10:37

Have you considered a VW Atlas? I went and drove a loaded VR6 for my uncle and was very impressed. The interior is basically identical to my e-Golfs, save for the digital cockpit (instrument cluster) which is flipping awesome. But the thing that most impressed me was that a full sized human (I’m 5'8") could comfortably fit in the third row. I was shocked.

And being a VW it’s not horrible to drive. And damn it I love android auto (and I think Apple car play is just as nice if you have an iPhone).

Plus, I believe the 2019 MY still has the 6 year/72k mile bumper to bumper warranty.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > Montalvo
10/21/2019 at 11:48

Adding another foot in length, 6” in width, and 5” in height might be too much to practically park it in my garage.

If she needed/ wanted a truck-y thing, it’d be a much stronger contender against similar-size vehicles.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > His Stigness
10/21/2019 at 11:57

The Atlas was originally on the list and I’m not sure why it dropped off before we even looked at it . We find it one of the least-offensive looking cars in this size range and we even commented about it on our drive home when we saw one...

MrSnrub > Eric @ opposite-lock.com
10/21/2019 at 11:59

No love for Mazda or Hyundai/Kia? The Highlander is probably the best out of these 3 but I’d personally go for the CX-9, Telluride or Palisade (in that order) over any of them.

Kinja'd!!!

I’m pretty unimpressed by t he new Explorer. Ford really needs to do something about their interior design.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > Ash78, voting early and often
10/21/2019 at 12:06

If she’d take a minivan, we’d be there, in spite of FCA. A PHEV minivan would be so perfect for her needs, as it would be electric almost everywhere she goes, even trips to Costco.

Alas, she wants a “mom car” but thinks minivans aren’t cool. I think hingeyvans are objectively worse in every way, but can’t change her mind.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > TheTurbochargedSquirrel
10/21/2019 at 12:07

This is the thing that completely terrifies me about the Exploder. I have even mentioned that to my wife in arguments against it, which is why I’m at 90% certainty that it’ll be the Highlander. There are just too many questions on the Explorer.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > Arrivederci
10/21/2019 at 12:09

She owns a Mazda and decided she didn’t want one again. Not entirely sure why, considering they’re pretty nice.

The Toyota dealer we visited, which would be the one we’d use for service, was pretty chill. What’s the major difference?

The worst dealer we visited was easily Ford. I hate the dealer we went to and refuse to take my car there for service (it’s the worst dealer service department experience I’ve ever had anywhere, which is hard to do when I’ve dealt with Chevy dealers before) . The parking lot is overpacked and it’s ghetto/confusing everywhere. Sadly, they are the closest one and the highest-volume dealer until you get to somewhere in California.

Most dealers, except that Ford dealer, have realized where they are is no longer where they were when they opened and they have become distinctly less skeezy. Even dealers for plebeian makes are pretty low intensity. We also plan to use the Costco car buying program to avoid having to haggle, unless they can get us a far better price. I’m planning to bounce whatever the Costco dealer offers off the other Toyota dealer, then take whichever one has the better final price. I figure the one we visited wants to move the one we saw, so might as well see how bad they want to move it.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > Jarrett - [BRZ Boi]
10/21/2019 at 12:32

The rear facing infant seat is why she wants out of the Mazda3 so bad and we haven’t even made it the first year, but it has definitely been uncomfortable .

Some of the convertible seats are better when rear-facing; I can just barely keep the front seats in normal positions in my FoST with the 4Ever mounted in the center. Useless in the 86, but it might help with the Mazda3, and you’ll need one that lasts at least tens years anyway at the rate car seat requirements keep ratcheting up .

His Stigness > Eric @ opposite-lock.com
10/21/2019 at 12:50

Besides the fact that I’m a huge VW fan, I actually compared it to other cars in the class, including the Subaru Ascent. I loved how it drove like a much smaller car, and there was plenty of power from the VR6. But I was just shocked at how much room the interior had. All of the others cars I tried I could barely it in the third row, but in the Atlas I was comfortable. And even with the 3rd row up, there was still a ton of cargo space. It was amazing.

And I think in the class you’re looking at, the infotainment is above and beyond anything you else you can get. The 8" glass touch screen is absolutely amazing. The stock UI is great, but Android Auto/Apple Car Play look phenomenal , and it all integrates so well into the digital cockpit.

fintail > Eric @ opposite-lock.com
10/21/2019 at 13:10

My mom is an early boomer, and she won’t consider anything without a trunk. It has to have a trunk of some kind, any kind of rear end drop-off just irks her. However, I took her on a road trip last month and rented a car, which ended up being an Escalade. She hated getting into it, but was fine getting out, and liked the higher seating, so I can imagine she’ll want a CUV if/when she replaces her Camry.

I don’t think I’d want the Tesla or Lexus image either - to me it shouts “I hate cars and don’t like driving, watch out for me”. I work in what I call a tech-adjacent field, but with a lot of tech-types or wannabes. Not my thing, they take work very personally and wear it all on their sleeve. Life is too short. The plebian mom car can be an inoffensive thing. A Highlander is kind of just a Sienna for moms who still have some ego/image issues.

I live in Bellevue, Stepfordville, tell me about it. Funny thing, I was in eastern WA all last week, and there’s a similar demographic - aggressive entitled types, who seem to prefer large trucks and GM BOF SUVs, the foreign models aren’t so big.

Arrivederci > Eric @ opposite-lock.com
10/21/2019 at 14:35

Moreso for service - the local Lexus dealer was amazing to bring my old IS to - clean, brand new loaners at any service, you pulled into a covered, heated/cooled bay to drop off or pick up your car. They weren’t cheap, but they didn’t ever lie or try and upsell you. All in all, service there was a fantastic experience.